3.15.2006
Salvation?
What in the world does it mean to be a Christian? In Donald Millers book Blue Like Jazz he discusses why he calls it Christian spirituality ( and I am sure that I am botching the graceful way that Don clearly expresses his thoughts through writing) The word Christian for so many, means so many different things. This is where I am at. The term salvation had been stirred up in my mind. I have been reading a lot about diffenernt peoples views having to do with this word salvation and its relationship with Christianity. Some would say that being "saved" has nothing to do with your relationship to God (Brian McLaren - Generous Otrhodoxy especially on pg 112, I don't agree with him much) and others would say that salvation though it is something that comes out of the "whole deal" it is not our main focus, I don't know what this means to me.
I guess that for my whole life I thought about Christianity as our way to get to heaven, Jesus came to "save" us. For what He has done for us we give him out life. Through this giving of our lives to him we are transformed. We become new people. Everything changes, not the instant of belief or shortly there after but transformation begins. I just feel like this past year or two everything that I have known or thought I have know has become somewhat shaken. This for me is faith. Not knowing all the answers, begin confused, frustrated at the church, upset that God didn't leave a clear and detailed outline of definitions, theology, and church hand books (I know we have the bible which I have been trying to read more and more) but there is still so much discussion about all these things I am confused. I desire answers and I want truth in my life.
If any of thing is certain in all of this, it is that through all of this confusion and struggle I have sought the Lord and made effort to get to know the source of all truth more and more everyday.
This is what I am sure of: My faith lies in trusting that God will give me the answers! God has a will for my life and that will is to seek the Lord in spite of all of my doubts.
I guess that for my whole life I thought about Christianity as our way to get to heaven, Jesus came to "save" us. For what He has done for us we give him out life. Through this giving of our lives to him we are transformed. We become new people. Everything changes, not the instant of belief or shortly there after but transformation begins. I just feel like this past year or two everything that I have known or thought I have know has become somewhat shaken. This for me is faith. Not knowing all the answers, begin confused, frustrated at the church, upset that God didn't leave a clear and detailed outline of definitions, theology, and church hand books (I know we have the bible which I have been trying to read more and more) but there is still so much discussion about all these things I am confused. I desire answers and I want truth in my life.
If any of thing is certain in all of this, it is that through all of this confusion and struggle I have sought the Lord and made effort to get to know the source of all truth more and more everyday.
This is what I am sure of: My faith lies in trusting that God will give me the answers! God has a will for my life and that will is to seek the Lord in spite of all of my doubts.
# posted by pedronegro : 8:20 AM
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what you are sure of sounds right on peter, i look up to you. i've heard about that book, but i have a hard time reading. but i know we are saved by grace, through faith, and to me that is amazing. i miss you man, and cannot WAIT anymore to watch you get married.
Peter! Just now at this very moment have I noticed that you did indeed heed my advice, and you blogged. I'm so happy! Good words. It looks like your seeking and growing, patiently and intelligently, and I respect that. I miss you friend.
"Not knowing all the answers, begin confused, frustrated at the church, upset that God didn't leave a clear and detailed outline of definitions, theology, and church hand books"
Do you think there is a reason why we weren't given these things? If so, what could it be?
I think the reason is simply this, God will not often give us "answers." God wants to give us Himself! ...and this will turn out to be all the answer we need.
Peter, you are a model of faith. If we aren't challenged we aren't even trying to engage the person of Jesus. I hope the struggle never ceases for you, only that your struggle keeps you close to Jesus!
Do you think there is a reason why we weren't given these things? If so, what could it be?
I think the reason is simply this, God will not often give us "answers." God wants to give us Himself! ...and this will turn out to be all the answer we need.
Peter, you are a model of faith. If we aren't challenged we aren't even trying to engage the person of Jesus. I hope the struggle never ceases for you, only that your struggle keeps you close to Jesus!
i'm currently reading a book called "four views on salvation in a pluralistic world" and things that i thought were so clear and straightforward about salvation i am not sure of anymore. i am confident that God is powerful enough to have a perfect plan regarding the salvation of humanity regardless of our inability to comprehend who He is or how He works. i think faith is trusting God despite our doubts and struggles with our beliefs. some people might consider that a cop-out but i don't think God is something that we can put in a box so that we can really fully understand Him.
We had a conversation this morning about the relationship between the gospel we preach and the lives people lead...
...we wrack our brains trying to find ways to encourage, cajole, coerce, and even guilt, christians into wanting more of Jesus; could this be a result of the gospel we preach?
We preach a gospel of "personal salvation" and people are content with exactly that. What would happen if we were to preach the gospel that Jesus preached (Matthew 24:14, Luke 20:1, etc.)?
I actually had someone tell me last week, that they really didn't care much about what Jesus wanted to do with their lives, they were going to heaven and that is all that they cared about.
This is quite simply a heresy, a perversion of the person of Jesus, and is not salvation.
...we wrack our brains trying to find ways to encourage, cajole, coerce, and even guilt, christians into wanting more of Jesus; could this be a result of the gospel we preach?
We preach a gospel of "personal salvation" and people are content with exactly that. What would happen if we were to preach the gospel that Jesus preached (Matthew 24:14, Luke 20:1, etc.)?
I actually had someone tell me last week, that they really didn't care much about what Jesus wanted to do with their lives, they were going to heaven and that is all that they cared about.
This is quite simply a heresy, a perversion of the person of Jesus, and is not salvation.
Justification...
The one thing in the Bible and in Church history that really is solid is Martin Luther's "justified by faith" where in scripture justification is being legally declared right before God. So, in one sense, we are right with God, but this is a righteousness not earned but given to us. Grace.
The word "saved" is often from a word that also is translated "whole"--so salvation is really being made whole and is a process. We first need to satisfy God's requirement for the relationship with him (saved from the penalty of sin), then we need to experience the grace of being made whole from the power of sin (sanctification) then one day the presence of sin in our life will be gone--glorification.
So, even though we have secure salvation from the penalty of our sin (not going to hell ever since we are justified by faith in Christ), does not mean our salvation is complete. We still have to "work it out" and live with our new identity as God's sons/daughters. And, a part of salvation will ever happen until after we are dead and in the presence of Jesus.
A lot of folks out there want to massage things to either put in "earning" something, which is works. We are in a relationship and salvation is really being made whole to have an ever deepening relationship with Christ. First it is legal, but then there is so much more!
Sorry my most is SO long. I love you, bro.
Rich
The one thing in the Bible and in Church history that really is solid is Martin Luther's "justified by faith" where in scripture justification is being legally declared right before God. So, in one sense, we are right with God, but this is a righteousness not earned but given to us. Grace.
The word "saved" is often from a word that also is translated "whole"--so salvation is really being made whole and is a process. We first need to satisfy God's requirement for the relationship with him (saved from the penalty of sin), then we need to experience the grace of being made whole from the power of sin (sanctification) then one day the presence of sin in our life will be gone--glorification.
So, even though we have secure salvation from the penalty of our sin (not going to hell ever since we are justified by faith in Christ), does not mean our salvation is complete. We still have to "work it out" and live with our new identity as God's sons/daughters. And, a part of salvation will ever happen until after we are dead and in the presence of Jesus.
A lot of folks out there want to massage things to either put in "earning" something, which is works. We are in a relationship and salvation is really being made whole to have an ever deepening relationship with Christ. First it is legal, but then there is so much more!
Sorry my most is SO long. I love you, bro.
Rich
# posted by 
: 10:22 AM
: 10:22 AM
Justification...
I would not disagree with what Rich said about this concept, only add some discaimers...
1) The legal metaphor for the person and work of Christ is exactly that, one of the metaphors that the apostle Paul used to help us understand who Jesus is and how we relate to Him.
2) If by justification we mean '"entrance into a future heaven by way of personal acknowledgement of Jesus crucificion and resurection" we are missing the whole point.
Jesus said simply "follow me." To do so is to enter salvation, which (as Rich pointed out so well) is a process and not an event. It is quite simply a modern heresy to separate salvation (justification) from salvation (sanctification). Jesus never used either of those words. He expected men and women to respond to the person of God as revealed in Himselfwith everything they could muster.
Simply put salvation is not merely heaven when you die, but heaven now and forever; and salvation is not to be had at the price of a mere prayer that includes the sound "jesus" in it. (Matthew7:21-27, Luke 14:27, Matthew 10:39, Mark 10:17-21, Luke 10:25-37)
I would not disagree with what Rich said about this concept, only add some discaimers...
1) The legal metaphor for the person and work of Christ is exactly that, one of the metaphors that the apostle Paul used to help us understand who Jesus is and how we relate to Him.
2) If by justification we mean '"entrance into a future heaven by way of personal acknowledgement of Jesus crucificion and resurection" we are missing the whole point.
Jesus said simply "follow me." To do so is to enter salvation, which (as Rich pointed out so well) is a process and not an event. It is quite simply a modern heresy to separate salvation (justification) from salvation (sanctification). Jesus never used either of those words. He expected men and women to respond to the person of God as revealed in Himselfwith everything they could muster.
Simply put salvation is not merely heaven when you die, but heaven now and forever; and salvation is not to be had at the price of a mere prayer that includes the sound "jesus" in it. (Matthew7:21-27, Luke 14:27, Matthew 10:39, Mark 10:17-21, Luke 10:25-37)
holy crap, way to open it up for discussion peter...
i am very down with what noah said.
dude i seriously want you peter.... soon......
i am very down with what noah said.
dude i seriously want you peter.... soon......
Save me...I opened theological can of worms, Peter.
My stand is that justification (what many mean when they say salvation) is an event that delivers us into a relationship that is eternally secure. Sanctification is an event/or events but also a process of living in this new relationship. Glorification means that in the literal heaven we can be truly in the presence of God. All these words are biblical. I can go over each in their context, but I am no Bill G.
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My stand is that justification (what many mean when they say salvation) is an event that delivers us into a relationship that is eternally secure. Sanctification is an event/or events but also a process of living in this new relationship. Glorification means that in the literal heaven we can be truly in the presence of God. All these words are biblical. I can go over each in their context, but I am no Bill G.
# posted by : 6:31 PM
: 6:31 PM<< Home
